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Nicole (00:00):
Welcome to our first episode of, into the open a podcast focused on open education. We're calling this
one, the beginnings, because we thought it would be best to start off by situating ourselves and
somewhat explaining how I talked, Dr. Roberts and Heather into all us,. My name is Nicole and alongside
with Heather and Verena (AKA Dr. Roberts) we're planning on navigating the waters of open education
and doing so through podcasting so that you can join with us. #GO-GN and the Hewlett foundation have
provided us with the opportunity to explore the world of open through this medium. So a big. Thank
you. Goes out to them. So come join us on this journey and maybe start pondering your new pirate
name. You'll see the odd boat metaphor show up in this episode. Let's jump into introductions.
Verena (00:56):
Okay. That makes more sense. Okay. Why are we doing this then? The why of why are we connecting?
Okay, got it. I'm good. My name is Dr. Verena Roberts. I'm an adjunct associate professor with the
University of Calgary Werklund school of Education. So that means that I get to teach some sessional
courses as well as do some research at the university. I'm also an instructional designer with Thompson
Rivers University, and that means I create, online, I build and design. I don't just create design online
courses, a synchronous courses with faculty across British Columbia. My focus area is in,open learning
specifically zero textbook cost program. So that means that everything that I designed with my
instructors and faculty is an open educational resource. And I also promote open educational practices. I
recently left my position at Rocky view schools in February as an online high school teacher so I have
taught in the K-12 system for over 20 years, on and off different grades. So my background and
experience is really in K-12 and higher ed and course design. And that's what we're going to be talking
about.
Heather (02:29):
I'm Heather van Struan and I am well, I'm a mom to Matilda and then a dog named Frodo and a wife to
Simon and a friend and a colleague. And I work with elk island Catholic schools. I've been teaching for
over 15 years. I started out in high school and then most of my time was at the junior high level,
predominantly grade nine, but I loved the smattering of seven and eight content and all core subjects.
And then I took a position with elk island to be their ed tech consultant, which has transformed to be a
curriculum consultant. so that includes secondary numeracy are in Alberta. We have the Caney program,
the knowledge and employability program. So I help teachers with that and, and comes with that is the
differentiation. I'm all about data analysis and all the data that we get within our division and help
support, my assistant superintendent with that., I just finished my master's program with the, with the
UFC, um, in interdisciplinary studies. And I know we'll talk a little bit more about that, but my studies
were in neuroscience and technology and then it turned out to be a little bit of wellness in the last little
bit. And, yeah. And that's, well, I know we're going to get there, but that's where I started learning more
about OER.
Nicole (04:19):
Yes. I have to tell you a bit about me too. So same thing as Heather, I just finished my master's at UFC.
Yay. It was a three-year slug, but we made it through and same thing. I actually know Heather from our
master's program because I also did neuroscience, educational neuroscience and educational
technology. I've taught for a little bit less than both of you, but about eight, nine years now, but most of

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that's been international overseas. So I did teach in Alberta for awhile, and then I fled to south America
to Irvine. I taught there for LA and then the middle east in Japan. So I'm currently in BC and working as
an instructional designer and e-learning specialist for a couple of different companies. So same as
marina. We have some connections. There is I build online courses and online learning modules. yeah.
And we can get a little bit into how we're connected.
Nicole (05:17):
Uh, do you want to start? We're all connected, I think, through, through Dr. Roberts somehow So you
brought us, I thank you. I brought you together, but then you keep bringing us together. So I think that's
really neat. So yeah, I might've been the initial node of learning as they say, and connectivist terms that
the catalyst was even more interesting. I also want to do a quick land acknowledgement because I'm
coming in from Beaconsfield Quebec, and I actually am learning about the ancestral lands. So I am not
going to, destroy anyone's name right now, especially any indigenous, names.I just want to point out
that as I'm learning as a Canadian educator about land acknowledgements, it's really important to say
what action I'm going to be taking, as opposed to just putting out a name or, or explaining where I might
be. , as part of this project is, is also figuring out where we are at in terms of our place and our space
and our, and our learning medium., I'm based out of Beaconsfield Quebec, which is by Montreal. but I'm
not sure of my ancestral names yet.
Heather (06:41):
Well, I can do I'm within treaty six.
Verena (06:45):
Yeah. I was treaty seven in Calgary that's I didn't
Heather (06:47):
Know. And I know that, we are on the traditional meeting ground of the CRI the, so to the Denny, the
Blackfoot, the Nakota Sioux and the mate tea. And,I really liked that. You said you also take, you gotta
take an action. You don't just say a land acknowledgement and recognize it and check the box and move
on. And I know, especially right now, it's, it's, it's something, a lot of people are more aware of because
of, of what's been happening in our news and, and the, especially with the residential schools and the
end in Alberta, the new curriculum, there's a lot of talk about, the whole reconciliation process. And so I
know that, especially for right now, it's a matter of just listening to people and recognizing their truth,
their stories and their heritage. Yeah.
Verena (07:43):
Which I think will be a big part of this project. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. I think I'm going to say action for me
would be to see the best way of including that voice into this project, because I think that's kind of an
action for, for all of us and an intention for sure. no for sure. And the, but the reason that we are
connected is because of a course that I had the pleasure of teaching called ed tech ethics. We'll actually,
I named it ed tech ethics. It was actually called ethics and educational technology, I think technically,
and in the course, we learned about open educational resources and we learned about open learning.
Although I learned that those weren't necessarily the words that my students might use to describe
their learning or what they thought they learned. and the two, two of the students in that original

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course, uh, are Heather and Nicole. And so that's how we are originally connected, I think. And then you
two know each other differently though, as well.
Heather (08:53):
Yeah. Yeah. We actually met within our first year, our very first course of our masters and we were put
into a group for our very first assignment and it was myself, Nicole and three other people. And we
ended up, as much as we could throughout our, that first year to try and be a group again, because we
worked so well together and just clicked. And that was the dream team. It was like, I don't know. And
we all came from different areas. Like there was we're smattering of within Alberta and then south
America, with Nicole. And then when we moved from neuroscience into our second year, it was, Nicole
actually went into a different course and I said, come, come into leading and learning in the digital age
with me. And Nicole is like, really? And I'm like, yeah, come in. Like I saw the actual first syllabus and, the
instructor who I hadn't met Dr. R brown and it looked awesome and I'm like ditch whatever ship you're
on and come into my little boat. And then she, she switched. Yeah. She switched. , and from there we
did a whole year of that leading and learning, and that's where we met you. And then final year that's
Matilda. I have a bag of marshmallows on standby. So that's what that giggle was, was like a whole bag
of marshmallows for me. This is a bad choice.
Nicole (10:27):
Yeah. I was sitting on a beach in Hawaii. I'd actually gone back to Hawaii for this summer and I'd started
into a different topic and it was not going so hot so well, I'd done my first, first course and I messaged
Heather and she was like, come over to the dark side. So I got special permission to switch out of the
topic I was in and move into, educational technology, which I am incredibly grateful. I'm actually curious
because Heather and I can speak to it first if you want, but, how were you first introduced to open
education? The secret? So I was working with a school district and actually I was working with a business
company for a school district, which is contentious in itself, but it was in British Columbia. And the
business company was, offering and delivering online courses to China for students.
Verena (11:28):
Thethe goal was that they would take some online courses in China, from us. So BC certified courses.
And, but they would have to come over for their English, like 30 or grade 12 English and social studies,
English grade 12 in the community. So they would come over. So they, the, the goal was to make them
more successful and confident in English before they came over by using online learning. So it was an
online blended type approach. And the principal of that school was named Dean coder. And one day he
sat me down and he's like, this is great. This is working, but I want to know where the future of online
learning is going. I want, I want to know what's going on in the world and not just in our small little
satellite company. So he pushed and challenged me to find the bleeding edge of online learning.
Verena (12:20):
So I went off and did my own little inquiry and discovered, this course in 2000, and it might've been
2009, 2010 now, so a while ago, and it, was called change and it was a MOOC, but it wasn't a MOOC
before the 2012 MOOCs. It was a MOOC based on connectivism and every week they had a different
person come in and do a webinar and on a different topic. And we all had to get blogs and we all had to
learn what an RSS feed was right away and make those connections. And we all had to get on Twitter to

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be a part of this. And it was with Steven Downs and, George Siemens, they were leading it at the time. I
just jumped right in. And one week I was in a webinar. So you also got to jump in halfway through, it
didn't matter.
Verena (13:07):
So I jumped in and Alec, Dr. Alec Carlos was doing a session and he was just talking about open and
network learning. And I wrote a little message in the chat. I was so nervous, but I thought I needed to
ask a question. And all he did was say, oh, so Verena is asking. I can't remember even what I asked, but
the fact that he identified me in such a global way, which I thought the whole world was hearing my
name and I was all embarrassed. And it, it just hit me in a really different way than anything I've ever
done before. And I was completely hooked and transformed and thought, what is this open network
learning that he's talking about? And, uh, I went from there, but yeah, there you go. That's how I got in.
Heather (13:52):
It totally reminds me. Maybe it's foundational in like child programming, but like romper room when she
held up the mirror. And she said, like, I see Verena, I seen a call. Yeah. I, uh, that's the first image I think
of when you mentioned that. And then also how excited I know I get when it's recognized that I'm there.
Right. And I have something to say or question or contributed,
Verena (14:18):
Or that you're a human being. It was, I was like, oh my goodness. He recognized me as a learner and you
didn't make me feel stupid. He just, it was so encouraging. And all he did was say, you know, hi Frieda,
that's a good question. Really higher ed though. Cause you're so used to just being a number. You're one
person I remember in my program, I'm one person in the class is 600 for some of those. And so to be
acknowledged like, yeah, it's fancy. It's scary though. It's nerve wracking. I can, I can relate to that being
like cool to put yourself out and put that first, like open, like tweet or message. That's, that's scary,
super scary. And you've all done it in very different ways. And actually that's, that's my I'm going to
listen to what your first ones were. So then I'm wondering if there's a theme here, but a common
characteristics. Yeah. Go for it. When is the first
Heather (15:14):
Into open education? Truly, I would say within the ed tech ethics course, like overall that I'm, I know
their smatterings or like an amuse-bouche within other things that we've done where, you know, like
I've S I've searched for resources myself, or if there was something that I've wanted to learn, I've looked
it up, right? Like I've, I've done that. Or, you know, the one-off options within a class where you can pick
your topic and then create your presentation based on that. I think it's like, it's, it's a S it's like maybe the
foundation's leading up to what it, what it truly is. But I think overall it's within our ed, um, ed tech
ethics course of really diving in and giving so much freedom in what, what we can do and how we
research it and how we like what we write on and all that.
Heather (16:14):
then, then the connections, like, you know, it's, it's interesting hearing you say that, Verena about what
you were exposed to because you brought that within our course as well. we had the connections on
Twitter, right. And we had an, an experience with that and reflection. I think that's the other thing is

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how much reflection we had in this course, really brought to light my experiences and what I was doing
as a student, compared to other courses, other courses, other from even kindergarten to grade 12, like
you do the assignment, you check the list, you check the boxes and you move on and you do the test
and you move on. Right. Whereas like I'm still reflective of the chapter that I wrote. And I'm really
curious as to what's happened with that chapter, if other people have taken it and done stuff with it,
right. Like I'm in, I'm invested. I don't think I've ever been as,
Nicole (17:12):
I mean,, put it into context a little bit because I think if people are listening, they're a bit confused
probably as to what the course was and what we had to do. So as students, in the course, we got to pick
a topic out, uh, like in, within the genre of educational technology, ethics of educational technology. And
then we contributed our writing. We wrote eight chapter on our topic for an open press book. So an
open educational, we created an open educational resource and it was set up with a whole bunch of
open educational practices and participatory activities that pushed us to dip toes into different, uh,
open networks. Did I kind of sum that up in a fairly appropriate way, or you want to add anything to
that? That's cool. That's the way you summed it up. Yeah, no, but I think like, like OER which are open
educational resources can just be created or designed, but I believe that the way to do it is to go
through experiences and that's what, or to build upon experiences in order to design or create an open
educational resource.
Nicole (18:17):
This course was the same thing for me. It was my first introduction into open education. Chances are, I
probably had dipped my toes in at some other point. But like you said and mentioned, I probably didn't
have the vocabulary from, for it or know what on earth I was doing. So for me, I think I still, it took me a
long time to realize and understand I'm still figuring out what open is. I'm still a bit confused by it. And
that'll kind of lead us into probably why we're doing this podcast. But I think halfway through that
course, I finally hit a breaking point and I had a sit down chat with Dr. Roberts with marina. And it
dawned on me that you were doing to us, what I do with my students in writer's workshop, where it was
just an inquiry and authentic, and I wasn't going to fail.
Nicole (19:04):
based on the fact I was doing some exploring and building connections. And so I think it took me seeing
that I had done this to, to my own elementary students for it to click. And I was like, oh, I get it. Okay. I
feel safe. And then I was able to kind of understand what was going on again. I think I'm still like many
people trying to wrap my head around exactly what open education is and all of like it's open pedagogy,
open educational practices. There are about 4,000 terms And so I'm, I'm still discovering, but then I first
kind of tastes. And the first time I'd probably put the word open education, the words, open education
to what we were doing was definitely in the, ed tech ethics course. So thank you for that.
Heather (19:53):
And I will add, I'll add to that is the fact it was uncomfortable. It was very uncomfortable. Oh
Nicole (20:01):
Goodness. I'm still unclear. Right.

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Heather (20:03):
Like, I feel like that's part of, part of what we're talking about is like navigating it because we've been
brought up and exposed to learning education, creation, like in, in a traditional sense and, and, you
know, Verena you rocked our boats. Like you like the little boat that I got Nicole in with me, I think
we've felt like we were in a squall of like, what, what do I do? And I know with, with the safety that
you've created for us with, you know, the check-ins and the, the amount of formative assessments, it
was quieting the squall and helping us navigate through it. Yeah. It's through that uncomfortableness to,
to get to where we are now. Right. And, and,and I think that's what a lot of people who are introduced
to, to this is uncomfortable and it brings up a lot of like, what is happening? How does that work? How
do I get there? Like, where is this ship going? Right.
Nicole (21:08):
I'm laughing. Because I think when we did our first blog reflections, I used a gift that was like grounding.
So I'm like, yeah, that was pretty much the feeling for the start of it. So I think that actually leads into
kind of why do this as a podcast and why we're doing it. I still have so many questions and I'm still really
confused in so many areas, but I definitely have gone more into researching open education. And so I
think that's kind of where this comes from as a podcast. Cause I don't think I'm alone in that. I think if
you're just starting to navigate and look at open education, you probably have some of the same
questions or concerns or hesitations or confusions that we would have. So I thought maybe convincing
Dr. Roberts (Verena) to do a podcast and then talking Heather into it because I mean, she pulled me into
the shift to start with, so I thought, well, maybe we could do it together. We could through podcasting,
explore this whole journey into the open. Heather, do you want to talk about why podcast? Well,
Heather (22:17):
And we, we process through conversation like, and you know, talking about our history, right? Like it
was a matter of always meeting, getting together, talking it through bouncing different ideas and we
have clearly have different perspectives. And this is where like bringing up what we were talking about
earlier, when we talked about the land acknowledgement and reconciliation, it's listening to people and
processing and, and that's like, the medium of podcast is awesome because if anyone or whoever's
listening, I'm hoping we have lots of listeners that, you know, you're reflecting too. And you're like,
yeah, I totally agree. Or noir completely disagree with that, or I'm going to ponder that. Or I wish I
could've jumped in that conversation. Right. Like that's the beauty of podcasts is you're listening, you're
reflecting. You're like, yeah. And, and, and hearing these is versus reading it or watching it as something
different.
Nicole (23:12):
I was just thinking, we should probably mention the reason we're doing this is because there is a
fellowship by GO-GN and go GN is a hashtag. Again, I love that. We're all talking to hashtags every time
we say EdTech ethics, it's a hashtag it's hashtag at, at tech ethics, but it still exists. And it made it on like
edgy this year. It made it on things to do or like things to listen to in terms of education. It made it on
Thursday nights. And I was like, that was just fluke. That was the one time we did the webinar. But the
reason we're doing this is the global open graduate network. And it is funded by the Hewlett foundation.
And, uh, I was given a fellowship, due to the challenge set by Nicole to think about podcasting. And in

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open context, we, all we wanted to do was to start a podcast and we were, we're expected to do four
different podcasts, but what we're going to talk about is like, why, why we're choosing the topic we did.
Verena (24:14):
We've decided to focus really on open learning. And specifically we want to look at the students of
people who have been in courses like mine, where I think I am using open educational practices, or I, I
say that I'm using open educational practices and what's the impact on students and what do they think
and what, what, what is, what is their future as a result of using as, as result of me using open
educational practices. So what are the results? What are the implications? what are some of the
questions, some of the perils, some of the challenges, any of that we get, we can talk about. But my
favorite part is the skepticism that I get from my students and wondering what is she doing? But I do
find it interesting. This nautical theme has come up multiple times, the, the drowning, the, the being a
boat, the pulling it together. So I don't want to be a captain by any means, but I'll be part of the journey
with you.
Heather (25:20):
I say you were like the navigator, the compass, the there's gotta be a role on the ship that somebody's
responsible for, like the cartography or whatever it is, right. Like,
Verena (25:31):
Yeah. But I will move I'm the navigator, but I will go where you want me to go, which I say, as the
instructor, it's awfully scary to use open educational practices, because you don't know if your students
are actually, you know, you don't know if they're going to get to the end or not. You can only guide
them. So I listened to your story as a floundering and drowning, and I'm like, you really could have, you
could have, but I wasn't, I did everything I could to make sure you did it. Yeah. Because really it's always
up to you like, and that that's pretty scary for me.
Nicole (26:08):
Audience wise. I think it is good to bring students who've experienced this or are just starting to
experience it in because anyone who's designing for open or creating open, or even in the middle of
being in a course that they're starting to introduce open or is like the instructors like we're using or
creating an, an OER,, I think would benefit from this because I think there are a lot of questions and
hesitations and, and just a lack of understanding. And we haven't, like Heather said, we've come through
traditional educational system. I've never been asked to do something like this before. And so I think it's
starting to swing, but I'm definitely, I'm curious in the meantime as to what the impact is.
Nicole (26:53):
So if you're also curious and have about 1,000,001 questions about open learning, open pedagogy and
everything that encompasses open education, then this just might be your podcast. Thanks for starting
this journey off with us to navigate the waters of open and for jumping aboard our ship in the next
episodes. We want to take a look at concepts and themes such as sharing is caring. Are we actually
better together? What sort of skills does one need to navigate these open connections in digital
networks and the whole concept of reciprocity? So what goes around, comes around, how do we
actually give back and not just take in order to keep these sustainable communities going another giant,

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thank you to #GO-GN , if you're interested in getting involved or connecting with the open educational
networks, that's the community for you? Trust me, they're super supportive. They'll answer all your
questions.
Nicole (27:47):
And for a newbie like me, they definitely have helped me in my journey and understanding and getting
into the level where I'm at now with open. So go check, #Go-GN out there, sponsored. And this is
sponsored by the Hewlett foundation. So again, another great organization too, to go check out who are
very, very supportive of the open movement. This podcast was created by Dr.Verena Roberts and
Heather Van Struan and produced and edited by myself, the whole night's link. So thank you so much for
joining us today. We look forward to connecting in the future and learning more together.

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